The LDA Podcast: An Exploration of Evidence-Informed Approaches to Learning and Development

The ”Myths, Misconceptions, and Superstitions” Episode

A special episode. Only two segments this time. Our guest, Clark Quinn, was too interesting to boot off, so we kept him going longer- for a double length discussion on a myriad of different topics.   For our first segment, we dig into awards in the Learning Industry. Will shares how the different industry organizations, in general, approach running awards programs. We then discuss the merits of these awards and what they mean- in other words, can they be trusted? Are they beneficial? Are they even useful? Are they fair? Are they accurate representations of merit. We also discuss the responses we got when Will posted this question on LinkedIn. Note that the referenced poem Matt wrote in college, HANK, is too humiliating to share. No one will ever see it! 🤔 You’ll have to listen to see what we are talking about here.  Then, we are joined by our long-time friend and colleague, Clark Quinn. Clark is one of the eminent leaders in learning technology strategy. He has written several books, including Revolutionize Learning & Development: Performance and Innovation Strategy for the Information Age and most recently, the great Millennials, Goldfish & Other Training Misconceptions: Debunking Learning Myths and Superstitions.  During this segment, we start with an exploration for why it is important to be aware of the myths, misconceptions, and superstitions (MMS) that are pervasive in the industry. We discuss what the differences are between each of those classifications and why using tools and resources more accurately is a better business case. Clark shares why it is so appealing to accept MMS. In other words, why do we diss science and throw money away? We then dive deep, exploring a few examples within each of those categories, including:   MYTHS: The Generations Effect‎ Multitasking‎ ‎Dale’s Cone‎‎Neuro-linguistic Programming (NLP)‎  MISCONCEPTIONS: No Knowledge versus Focusing on just Skills‎ ‎70-20-10 ‎  SUPERSTITIONS: ‎Interaction Yielding Engagement  Other MMS’ we raise include: DiSC, MBTI, Strengths, Neuro-everything that isn’t actually neuroscience, and Mehrabian’s 55-38-7.  Clark also references Psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi and his work on FLOW. You can find the seminal book, Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience, here.Matt references Human Development and exploring the human lifecycle as a more reliable way to look at the impact age may have rather than the Generations Effect. Without naming them directly, the information he references comes from the work of noted psychologist, Richard M. Lerner and his book, Concepts and Theories of Human Development and the work of Dale Dannefer, the Selah Chamberlain Professor of Sociology and Chair Department of Sociology, at Case Western. And, we learn that Will is a suspicious guy who loves leading questions🤣🤣.  And, finally, Clark joins us for the Best and the Worst.    

The ”I am a Coach... really... I am” Episode

In this episode, we discuss what it means to be creative and whether there is place for learning professionals to embody creativity to support insight learning. Will will ask a series of prompt questions for discussion. He explains the difference between Transfer Learning and Insight Learning and makes the connection to being creative. Along with the prompting questions, Will defines creativity based on a synthesis of some of the latest research on the topic. Will references the Duncker Problem. The Duncker Problem is a cognitive performance test, measuring the influence of functional fixedness on a participant's problem solving capabilities. The test was created by Gestalt psychologist Karl Duncker and published posthumously in 1945. Matt references the Nails on a Nail activity. You can see it on YouTube here.Then, Matt delivers a rant about a particular form of coaching he has been seeing in the field. Specifically, coaches who only engage clients facilitatively. They reflect what they hear and view themselves essentially as a mirror for the client to look into as one searches for a path toward a change one wants to make. The coach is not a SME and is not supposed to advise. The coach sticks to a process that gets the client to identify solutions. Please note: Matt is not attacking coaching in general. Just this particular form of it. Will coaches Matt very aggressively.Finally, Will interviews Roger Kaufman, one of the giants in the field of Educational Tech (Instructional Design). They discuss Roger’s Mega Planning model, a framework for adding measurable value to society. Roger can be found at https://www.megaplanning.com. Roger and Will discuss one of Roger’s main themes... “If you’re organization is a solution, what is the problem.” They also discuss Roger’s partnership with Mariano Bernardez. Mariano is the current Executive Director of the Performance Improvement Institute Global Network and CEO of the Performance Improvement Institute. And in honor of Roger, Will has even added new theme music to hide our edits.🤯 Of course, we end with the Best and the Worst. In the very beginning of the episode, we reference Laurel and Hardy and couldn’t remember their first names. They are Stan and Ollie, respectively.

The “Where’s the Evidence” Episode

In this episode, Will has a conversation with The Good Practice Podcast guys, Ross Garner and Owen Ferguson. You can find them at https://podcast.goodpractice.com. They share their origin story of the show. Will asks them whether we podcasters should go after and challenge the “bad actors” in our industry. The answer will surprise you. After Matt and Will debrief his Good Practice conversation, they dive deep into what makes evidence good evidence. In other words, how does one evaluate the quality of evidence in our field. In the discussion, Will and Matt discuss his first draft on a taxonomy for evaluating research. IT IS A FIRST DRAFT! But, click here to see it. They use 70-20-10 as an example for their exploration. The article Will wrote on 70-20-10 is here.And, of course, they tease the possibility of an exploration of A/B testing… again.In the final segment, Will and Matt share the Learning Translators they turn to when exploring new research. There also might be a pumpkin pie recipe. The list below is more people than directly referred to in the episode, as we left a few out as we discussed the topic.Julie Dirksen: http://usablelearning.com Patti Shank: https://www.pattishank.com Will Thalheimer: https://www.worklearning.com Clark Quinn: https://quinnovation.com Ruth Clark: https://www.clarktraining.com Karl Kapp: http://karlkapp.com Guy Wallace: https://eppic.biz Jane Bozarth: http://linkedin.com/in/janebozarth Donald Clark: http://planblearning.com Mirjam Neelen: http://linkedin.com/in/mirjamneelen The presentation Matt made is Grenoble, France on Myths, Misconceptions, and Snake Oil is here. Thanks to Clark Quinn for inspiring the title of the talk.Matt refers to The Invisible Gorilla: How Our Intuitions Deceive Us by Christopher Chabris and Daniel Simons. You can watch an interview Matt did with Chris Chabris here.And, of course, the Best and the Worst of the Week. We have a listener page. On it, we ask you a million questions about the show and how we can make it better. Check it out, and answer the questions. So far, all the things Matt likes are winning! 😁Also, we ask you to go to iTunes and Spotify and rate Truth In Learning. The more ratings we get, the higher up we go when one searches for shows like ours. Positive reviews are indeed preferred. 😜

The “ASK QUESTIONS” Episode

In this episode, Will goes away... to the beach. So, while I waited for him to return, Thiagi and I recorded a segment where we discuss the role of the learner. We share client examples, overcoming pushback from stakeholders who don’t initially accept the idea of learner-led approaches, and effect of leveraging learners in the classroom as evaluators (which helps them cement their comprehension, memory of the material, decision making while applying the concepts, and more. We also detour and talk about the distinction between performance versus and business outcomes. Thiagi refers to Thomas F. Gilbert, a psychologist and the founder of the performance technology- (HPT- Human Performance Technology). Thiagi refers to mindfulness. We don’t talk about it, but if you are interested in the topic, check out Carol Dweck’s book, MINDSET, THE NEW PSYCHOLOGY OF SUCCESS. We also reference Professor Chuck Petranek and his amazing simulation, Sex on the Beach, a social simulation about sexual behavior and AIDS.Will does eventually return, a bit sunburned. And, for that segment, we are joined by Patti Shank. https://www.pattishank.com. Patti is an evidence-based learning and development expert who focuses on “doing what works.” As she puts it, she “uses science to improve the results from instruction.”We discuss the merit and method of asking effective questions to drive, as Patti calls it, deeper learning. The conversation, of course, weaves through her typical theme of better practice, feedback, and memory. She discusses mistakes used when developing test questions and how to make those better. We go even deeper exploring what exactly is an assessment and how do questions play into them- which of course leads to a clarification of what are learning objectives. In the episode, Patti refers to Noted nutritionist, Zoe Harcombe, who can be found at...  http://www.zoeharcombe.com. Patti joins us for The Best and the Worst of the Week. Will references Scott H. Young’s new book, Ultralearning: Master Hard Skills, Outsmart the Competition, and Accelerate Your Career. 

The ”We Should Be Journalists” Episode

In our fifth episode, we go long… maybe too long! 😜 But, we got on a roll. We have lots of guests, a heated debate, and more. In Segment One, we go meta. We discuss why we should actually be negative. In other words, why it’s good to debunk, challenge, question, and even attack ideas. We discuss the pros and cons and why many in our field are so adverse to negativity. In Segment Two, Will conducts two separate interviews. In both, he explores whether we should do more investigative journalism in the L&D field. How can we ensure we are indeed doing all the right things? The first is with Ryan Watkins, co-host of the Parsing Science podcast and a professor in Educational Technology Leadership at George Washington University. Ryan also has an amazing website at We Share Science.The second is with Truth in Learning friend, Julie Dirksen. Julie is a research to practice guru. She is the author of DESIGN FOR HOW PEOPLE LEARN. Check out her cool website, Usable Learning.‎In Segment Three, we each share our top three research-based learning facts. What should we design into our learning programs to make them most effective.And, of course, we end with the Best and the Worst of the week. ‎We also referenced several times an article Will wrote called Donald Kirkpatrick was NOT the Originator of the Four-Level Model of Learning Evaluation. This one could possibly change your life!‎Matt mentions Self-Determination Theory, a model for why we do what we do. Here is a link to an article he wrote on How Learners Are Motivated. You can also learn a ton about motivation and specifically the model here, at the Center for Self-Determination Theory. We mention Mike Taylor and his wonderfully info-packed website. Here is the link… https://mike-taylor.org. 

The ”Rats Vs. Hamsters” Episode

In this episode, we discuss Will’s rat problem and the differences between rats and hamsters. Yes… you read that correctly. Don’t worry, this part of the podcast goes pretty quickly and we do indeed get to the good stuff. In the first segment, we chew on how to evaluate specific models, tools, or resources. During this segment, Matt refers to a course he took on Coursera  by Scott E. Page from the University of Michigan called MODEL THINKING. Then, in segment two, we pull a bait and switch… we tell you we are going to talk about what makes a training objective a good training objective and what is actually the goal of training itself. We cover a little of this, but then we get derailed. We get into a debate about the differences between education and training. It’s not as simple as one thinks.Finally, we talk about what makes a  trainer great. What are the characteristics and features of the best of the best? We are joined by Matt’s daughter, Lia, who has a particularly insightful and interesting perspective on this topic. We end with the Best and the worst. Lia stays with us to give hers, as well. 

The ”I am a...” Episode

In Episode Three, we tackle the question of using NPS (Net Promoter Score) as an evaluation tool for learning and development programs. First, we define what it is and explore how it is being applied (too often inappropriately). In segment two, we get philosophical. In practice, in business, and particularly in L&D, is it becoming more and more difficult to disagree with each other? Can we even do so? Should we? Well, of course..., but how should we go about it in a meaningful, yet supportive way? In segment three we are joined by Thiagi. We explore what labels we should use when describing what we do. Trainer, designer, consultant? Other terms? Will offers a solution. Thiagi asks several practical questions. And, finally, we all (Thiagi, too) share our best and worst of the week- although Thiagi shares his from long ago. 

Fact or Fiction

Will and Matt continue the name debate, but eventually land on TRUTH IN LEARNING. Segment One explores the usage of assessments like MBTI, DiSC, and other tools used in business. Why them? Are end-users clear about their purposes and the consequences of using them? For example- can these tools be used in hiring situations? They also discuss The Big Five as an alternative model and tool. In the second segment, they target Leadership. What is it, and can it be developed? Should it be. What are the consequences of leadership development absent clear definitions for leadership? The context is everything. In segment three, they explore the responsibility of L&D trade associations. Are they living up to their espoused goals? Are they ethical? Are they useful? And finally, a new epilogue segment... The Best and the Worst.

The Learning Empire

The inaugural episode of Truth in Learning. Meet Will. Meet Matthew. We introduce the show and share some of our goals and possible directions for the program. In the second segment, Will chats with the esteemed Connie Malamed about secrets of good L&D podcasting- something Will and Matt definitely need to learn! Connie wrote the wonderful book, Visual Design Solutions: Principles and Creative Inspiration for Learning Professionals. Before our third segment, Will takes a detour to share some research on brainstorming. In the third segment, Matt rails against those in the industry who claim that flawed learning tools and debunked models they like work- even in the face of contradicting evidence. Will and Matt use DiSC as a platform for the discussion. As an epilogue, Thiagi shares an oral essay on evidence-based learning. Share any comments you have below. Check out Will’s new Learning Transfer Evaluation Model.Click here for Connie’s website. Along with tons of great information (including her book), you can also find her wonderful podcast, ELC, the eLearning Coach. Worth several listens!